145993-contest-criticism-and-e-bullying
Content ---- ---- I didn't want to make it too specific, so let's just say that Entity was making a bad name for itself in chat and across twitter this weekend. The general point remains regardless of context though...lots of people complaining about various winners of housing or costume contests, using it as a platform to openly bash other players. Really sad to see tbh. | |} ---- ---- ---- This is an integral part of Wildstar in my opinion. This isn't just a 'report ignore and go away' problem. I'm not sure that it's such a great idea we develop that culture either. Oh hey, you can never set foot in the Wildstar public again because of how everyone tore you apart, etc, but hey it's ok...b/c you can just put them on ignore. Come on. This is about culling this behavior, not just from the general we need to end internet bullying (which is impossible) but from the 'Wildstar housing, contests, artists/players' perspective. One of the first large contests and we've already got people on a witch hunt (halloween pun intended) against winners. Should we really just ignore that? I don't think so. Not once did I say anything about stating opinions of how a contest was done. It's this sort of diversion being used to support actual bullying of people that's a problem. It's just a passive aggressive way to try and veil insults of someone. Things like 'Oh I'm not upset at you, I'm mad at Carbine b/c they chose such not creative winners' is indicative of what I mean. Something to that effect was actually said. Edited November 2, 2015 by Kelimbror | |} ---- ---- ---- Well said on all counts. I guess I just have high standards for Wildstar since we have a smaller community...one that I've tried to get involved in a little more than others. And housing is definitely a special niche this game has. I'd hate to see it tarnished by a bunch of bad apples. Perhaps this was just people getting out their vitriol for not winning, and I know we can't have a 100% supportive community b/c humans are sorta crap by default, but I'd like us to at least try a little harder. Everyone in the housing community tends to make a great name for this game and really I'd like to keep it that way. That's the most important thing to take away from this. In the future, maybe we could just take your stance and congratulate those who made it and work even harder on our next project. I myself haven't gotten in the housing limelight yet, but one day I'll get it down! | |} ---- ---- You're not focusing on the key part of "Report, Ignore, Move On" which is Reporting. It's not your job or my job to discipline people who are abusive, and if you feel what someone is saying qualifies, then chances are you're not the only one. Thus, when people who see someone causing trouble all report them to the people whose job it is to deal with it, then take away their avenue for making your gaming less pleasant by using the Ignore function, you can go on with your happy fun time only dealing with the people who agree. The beauty of the game's system is it is very easy to make problem people go away, and find people who feel the same way you do, so you'll never have to deal with people out to harsh your mellow unless you choose to. The best way to deal with a bully is to take yourself out of the situation. In a game that's easier than anywhere else because the game creators give us tools to do it. Moderators and GMs get paid to shut down drama, and get rid of the people who can't handle being part of the game's social structure. So like I said, a thread like this does nothing to slow down people causing trouble, and nothing to make the job of the people paid to deal with it easier. Edited November 2, 2015 by Lemurian | |} ---- I think I found the problem. You went to Twitter. There is only one place worse than Twitter for sheer idiocy and that's the Youtube comments section. Even 4chan and Reddit look like sunshine and rainbows after spending 5 minutes on either Twitter or Youtube. | |} ---- You're not focusing on the part about building a community. For someone claiming this thread will just cause drama, it seems you're the only one who wants that in an effort to ignore a real discourse about building a better community for the game. I'm not sure if that's intentional or just a side effect of trying to 'put me in my place'. I expected this sort of response though, so it's ok. While this isn't the most productive line of conversation, talking about it is better than not talking about it. Problems are larger than just ignoring someone and moving on. If that's how people handled all problems in real life, we'd all be dead. | |} ---- Yeah, there's no beauty about it. They just keep coming. I'm having to avoid chat altogether until they calm down. I can't even be seen in a twitch channel without a nuisance. It's rather disappointing and so I really appreciate the post, Kelimbror. My list of ignore has grown to be huge now. lol It would be really nice if people could be made aware of the situation so it doesn't happen to future contest winners. I'd hate to see the community's reputation fall down hill all because of a silly competition. Mostly no one will care, but the few who read this and take something from it are totally worth it. As for me, I'm fine just ignoring it and staying hidden for awhile, but man, am I ready for it to end already. Oh, well. I'll just have fun riding around on my Midnight Equivar in the mean time. xD | |} ---- Not from me today your plot was amazing.. and atmospheric and it does deserve first place. Oh remember to get katias addon to save that build.. would be a terrible loss to lose it all together :D Ive been rather ill today so a lot of chat was just flying by without me paying to much attention to it. I have noticed some jelousy issues with some of the new players.. but they need to realize just like anything else the epic plots are built by builders who have been at it for a long time.. ive had a player or two telling me they hate me cause of my plot.. but i didn't get to that level over night and there is always room for improvement.. ive scrapped hundereds of hours worth of building... ive even gone hiatus because the housing bugs where just to much for me to bare.. add that to getting to know other builders and be supportive of them while learning a thing or two here and there to get where im at now. So being pro at housing isnt done over night its done over months...or at least weeks of learning. | |} ---- ---- For cases like your's it makes me sad Carbine never got around to implementing the ability to hide if you chose to, not appearing on Who or lists of chat channels unless said something. My point does stand though. If people are seeking you out to bother you, that's on them and the GMs. Engaging them or scolding them in the forums accomplishes little. You've gotten a lot of support here and from what I've seen on Twitter and I'm sure ingame as well. Focus on those people and let the game's systems do their job. I'm absolutely not on the side of the bullies, but long experience has taught me there's little to be done about it by calling them out, and using the tools the game gives us does work unless they prove inadequate and in the case of Wildstar they're mostly ok. And as for the 'issue' at hand, my first entry in the first Wildstar housing contest was an homage (TARDIS control room), so I've got no issues with someone making a good one and winning a contest :) | |} ---- ---- ---- bad pun is bad. | |} ---- ---- This. People are sometimes just asshats. nothing a /block or /ignore cannot fix. | |} ---- ---- ---- The scruffy fur-ball has a point. I saw the winning house on Entity and was pretty impressed. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- What more can you do then in this situation? I don't think airing the dirty laundry in the forum is going to help matters, it certainly isn't going to stop those who are harassing them to suddenly stop. Is it nice that this happened?.....No it isn't.....Do I condone people's behavior?.....Certainly not as it's a disgrace. But until they add that magical button you can press which launches a hand out peoples screens and slaps some sense into them there isn't much else you can do other than to ignore and report them. But feel free to suggest anything better because I currently cant think of any other way to alleviate the situation other than ignore and report. | |} ---- People who are in the camp of "Flux should just man up", are part of the problem. It's this kind of attitude that tolerates/allows this kind of behaviour in the first place. There is not a single excuse in the world that justifies this kind of behaviour. And the animosity that the Internet provides does very little to correct this behaviour. What does help is the community to distance itself from such individuals and their behaviour. Make it a clear sign that this kind of internet bullying is not, and will not be tolerated in WildStar. Ideal would be if Carbine actually followed suit in this and made people experience a few consequences of this kind of behaviour. | |} ---- ---- And this is really what I'm trying to get at. While there are a lot of great posts being made here, the expected 'lol y so mad?' posts are representative of the overall problem at large. Suddenly it has become offensive to be a victim, to shine a light on bad behavior, and try to challenge a discussion to promote a better atmosphere for accountability. Think about it....people publicly shame you for speaking out about being publicly insulted...all the while missing the point about trying to make something better for all of us. Like Cantatus said, this sort of reaction isn't going to help promote future contests or events. If the first time we do something 'big' like this ends up in people being attacked in a public forum, why would a lot of people want to subject themselves to that? I'm not trying to sound like some overly emotional Wildstar nut, but think about all the things this game has that can make it magical. The last thing I want to see is turning wonderful systems like housing and costume customization into highschool popularity contests...especially when it hurts people in the process. I'm normally the angry one who hates everybody, the cynic, and the hermit...so the fact that I'm having to try and be all happy-town-kumbaya means things are markedly bad. :( Please be nice so I can go back to yelling at people to get off my lawn. | |} ---- Yeah, I saw people going on about the Nightmare Before Christmas house being "unoriginal" and "just copying a movie" and others claiming Carbine were a bunch of hipsters because they love Tim Burton movies so much (that's the cleaned up version, by the way). I wanted to call these players on their BS, but i didn't want to add fuel to the fire. It was all just whiney sour grapes from what I can tell. I went to one house of one of the players who clearly felt he was robbed in the contest, dude, no, your house did not deserve to win. The winners did a great job with their houses. And if any of these players think it was somehow easy to build any of the winning houses, no matter what they may be based on, try it. Over all, it was a sad day for Entity housing chat, which is usually so much better than this. | |} ---- I agree with most points in this thread. But man if it were me I would rub it in their (sore losers) faces (as I love sore losers for this reason). Yes, you can say I am going down to their level, but man does it give me a chuckle when they don't expect resistance and you make them look retarded and they end up using their ignore :). It can be one guy, or it can be hundreds, I would do it all the same. Don't dish it if you can't take it. And no this is not a 'man up' post, mostly just details how I would handle the situation. I for one am not going to cry over a mount (that is single use) and some game time, that's just trivial. However, curbing this behavior is wishful thinking at best (since a small subset even visit the forums), even if I don't tolerate myself I am not going to sit back and hide from the problem. You lash out at me, expect it back twofold. Maybe I am a masochist, who knows. All that aside, congrats to the winners, I surely don't have the patience/willpower and/or creativity to build some of the great plots I have seen in my time. | |} ---- Disagree. A vague scolding of "the community" in an open forum accomplishes very little positive. It paints an unrealistic picture to people who weren't there to witness the events and makes the game seem less nice than it is. It also feeds the people who get off on harassing others by demonstrating they got to someone. It's troll food. Especially since it does nothing to get actionable information into the hands of the people who are supposed to do something about it. Telling the person being bothered and the people who witness it and don't approve to use the tools available to them isn't the same as saying those feelings are a sign of weakness. Nor is it meant to be hurtful. It's about having your feelings but not allowing the harassers to prey on them. It is about channeling those feelings into using the correct tools for the job then getting on with your day so they don't get to claim they ruined it. If I'd been there to witness the harassment I would have reported everyone doing it and hope everyone else who saw it would do the same, because that's how things get changed in the short term. If someone is bothering someone and then 5 minutes later chat moves on like they're not even there because everyone else ignored them, then they get no troll fuel and the lesser bullies don't feel like they have people on their side and its ok to join in. In the middle term, instead of a drama thread like this someone interested in portraying the community in a positive light should announce a new Housing contest on a different theme, with Flux and a few others as judge. That's how you keep things upbeat and how you show the sore losers no one cares about their feelings, and how you keep the community positive. I've run and judged Costume Contests in City of Heroes when I played there. There were always people who complained about the winners, in both private and official contests. I shut them down by having another contest a few days or weeks later, and kept on doing what I found fun, instead of letting hate change how I related to the community. In the long term, no number of threads like this are going to change people from trying to be hurtful. Abuses small and large happen in this game and others every day. You make them irrelevant by using the tools we're given to deal with them, and by making the community we want and deserve happen despite their behavior, not by lamenting the state of the community as a whole because of one incident, or dwelling on it in the name of shining a light on it. There's a difference between acknowledging and moving on, and perpetuating bitterness by letting it get to you, and the tone of the OP was a lot closer to the latter than the former, which is why I responded the way I did. | |} ---- ---- I don't disagree with support. However for me it is really a matter of tone. I have a hard time considering something charged with negative language like the OP, as supportive. Especially when it paints with a pretty broad brush and little effort to isolate the haters as a fringe (which is what in reality they are). I'm more of a 'make the next thing that happens a good thing' person when I can be, so I don't see a scolding as productive when there are better options. | |} ---- ---- This is not trolling, they are not trying to elicit an angry response from me. They're simply raging and searching for others with similar feelings to gain support so they can feel better about their loss. When they find that support (and they do) they continue to harass together and find more support. They're unmoved by whether it affects me or not, so they continue to prey just the same. As for the people who did not witness it, I believe they'll see how many supporters there actually are here, as I did, and feel much better about the community, especially if they've been in a similar situation. However, what does make the game "seem less nice" is the negative feedback toward the OP's support for those experiencing "e-bullying." This is just my experience, though. A lot of posts here seem to be focused on my situation when it's not just me annoyed by this. I know this is the biggest housing competition we've ever had and with larger prizes, so the case is a little more severe now than it's been, but there are others in the past, present, and possibly the future who deal with this. So I ask that we don't focus this topic solely on me and instead continue to support everyone :) I also think this is why OP seemed somewhat vague, because s/he was referring to everyone affected by this. This is spot on. OP and other supporters here: helpful This: Not helpful nor hurtful because these points were already covered. Again, the tools are being used, but they don't fix every bad newcomer out of the hundreds that continue to show up and disrupt the gaming experience, and the harassers are not preying on feelings nor are they being hurt. Supporters like OP are very helpful and I think we should encourage it more. People one after one ruining the gaming experience for any victim/witness is unacceptable and is completely worth mentioning. Yes, there are few who touch the forums, care enough to read, and will actually take something from this, but those few are completely worth it. Now I think what would be most beneficial is stop worrying about whether this topic is beneficial or not (because it has been for me and a few others so far), and instead just let it continue to show how awesome our housing community really is. :) | |} ---- Unfortunately when you disregard all of the appeals to community, to coming together to build something better, to having a productive discourse(and my follow up posts) in favor of creating your own narrative...it's going to sound as negative as you want it to. Almost as if when you said this was just to create drama...and then none happened...that you need to try and emphasize what you will to create it yourself. Also, it's pretty tiring to see people saying I'm 'vaguely scolding' people as well as others trying to get 'more details' are really just trying to stir the pot. There's a reason I didn't name people, call them out, etc. The issue is important, not the specific people involved. Seems a little hypocritical to say the least. | |} ---- ---- Flux, I didn't get to witness what ever happened on chat, but here are a few points that should be remembered. First off, as Lemurian pointed out this thread is largely counter productive. The goal of limiting critical, angry, or criminal players is not served here. Second off, If indeed you (or anyone else) has been harassed that's not a community problem, that's a crime. It's difficult for U.S., U.K., or other EU police to deal with online harassment, but if anyone made threats against you in the process that makes it a much more straight forward criminal matter. You should contact Carbine directly, and then your local authorities. I've dealt with enough trolls to know that you undoubtedly got at least some threats of harm, so please keep what you receive recorded and forward it to the proper channels and authorities. Third off, unfortunately criticism is always going to be a part of competitions and art. I saw some SS of the winners plots and they are (IMO) amazing, and absolutely brilliant. That said, people will criticize themed plots as derivative, and everyone's got an opinion on art (which to your credit, I find your work to be). They say "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". It seems you already understand and expected this, good on you! Anything beyond criticism though that falls into the harassment / threatening category is very serious though, see my second point. Fourth off, Carbine does work hard to promote a good community in game. Honestly W* has one of the nicest communities of any MMO I've ever played. That of course doesn't mean it's with out some bad eggs, especially now with F2P in full swing. All this said, It isn't Carbine's job to police the community beyond members breaking their ToS, and we players are responsible for bringing problem behaviour to their attention. Carbine isn't omniscient, and we can't expect them to regulate all of our interpersonal interactions. Sadly, the problem with playing with people, is you have to play with people; for better and for worse. Fifth and finally, W*, like all games, is what you make of it. I was seriously impressed by the winners and many of the other entries in the housing contest! Good job all :3 if you let haters and trolls slow your roll, they get what they wan't and we suffer for it. Criticism and debate are normal, harassment is criminal. Deal with those actions through the proper channels and keep on keeping on ! | |} ---- It's like you completely ignored what he said as well as what many other people have been saying about the topic... So yeah. Let's continue to put our hands over our ears and eyes and wish the problems away. That's what makes communities magical! :wacko: | |} ---- It's like you completely ignored what I said as well as what many other people have been saying about the topic... You think anything in this thread is going to stop criminal players from committing crimes? Because that's what harassment is, and that's what those who commit it are. It's a nice sentiment, but no amount of "community support" and "lack of tolerance" of a crime is going to make it go away. I'm just as sad that this sillyness happened, I'm not naive enough to believe posts on the forums are going to help. As a community, and as individuals we need to expect criticism and debate when sharing our creativity, but also be vigilant in forwarding unacceptable and criminal behaviour to the proper channels. I never suggested we put our hands over our ears and eyes, I suggested we forward ToS breaking behaviour to Carbine, and Criminal behaviour to carbine and the proper authorities. I'd love if we could magically stop people from committing crimes and behaving badly with the magic of friendship and camaraderie, history shows us this has yet to work, however. Edit: Unfortunately, the relative anonymity of the internet emboldens many would be harassers to cross the line into actual harassers. The only sure way to prevent this would be to publicly link everyone's handles to their legitimate personal information. Even then it would not be fool proof or 100% effective. Plus the added effect of giving would be harassers means to do so to your actual person rather than just your character in game. Edited November 3, 2015 by Nazryn | |} ---- This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. So uh..yeah..don't know how to really respond to you. I find a pretty obvious trend in this thread. Those that say this is unproductive and only causes drama, which then follow up by putting words in my mouth or creating false narratives. Then there are people who actually read the posts, understand what this means to the community at large, and can have a meaningful discourse. I would love to invite you to the other side of the discussion, but it would take a personal investment into making Wildstar a better place by putting forward your personal best face. It's not about policing or shaming, which is why I don't have names, screenshots, or any other dramatic methods. It's about personal accountability and recognizing the need to foster a growing community of players w/r/t the specific artistic content avenues Wildstar provides. I'll give you an olive branch. Go back and read my posts. Not just the first post, but all of them. If you can point me to where I'm trying to 'punish' people, I'll eat my hat. And I really like my hat. But if it so happens that you realize this is a commentary on community and beginning a discourse on what that means...then hey, I'm here to keep talking about it. The last thing I will do is stop supporting other players b/c you feel it's beneath you or 'you know better' than I do. Sorry, not going to happen. | |} ---- This has everything to do with the thread. While I agree 100% with your sentiment, I fundamentally disagree with you methods. I'm not arguing or fighting, just pointing out the methods to deal with these types of issues I've known to be effective in the past. I'm not talking about punishing anyone, or suggesting anyone is "beneath" me or anyone else. I'm also not suggesting I "know better than you", but I am suggesting the methods myself and some others have pointed to are historically very useful and widely successful in dealing with similar problems. This fundamentally isn't a discourse on community, criminals are not (in my mind) community members, but anti-social individuals with out regard for the community. Those of us (like yourself, and Flux, and Lemurian, and the rest of us) who care about our community wouldn't engage in criminal behaviour (e.g. Harassment and Threats), and those that do have little interest in building a cohesive and comfortable community. This thread, and these fora aren't the time or place to support our fellow community members. The time and place is when harassment is occurring in chat, we need to speak up there and jointly report and socially black list those whose behaviour is unacceptable and criminal. As for serious support for victims of harassment there are programs IRL that are very helpful (I'm being a million percent sincere, Harassment is VERY SERIOUS and has led to very substantial psychological issues, depression, and suicide for close friends and family members of mine, getting real help is not 'weak'). So I'll just agree to disagree Kel. I do appreciate your sentiment, I just find that Lemurian hit the mark on this one. Supporting all of our community members is important, but doing so at the time and point of the negative interaction is where it needs to be happening. If Flux or other players are distressed over this, send them a PM in support, stand up in chat channels for our fellow players when we see harassment occurring, report and black list players who engage in these activities and when severe record interactions and forward them to the proper authorities. Those are my suggestions, people are welcome to take them or leave them. But sadly I don't see trolls and criminals leaving our species anytime soon no matter how robust a dialogue we may have on our fora microcosm. I'm personally happy to talk with anyone who has experienced harassment and would give my full personal support to them. But sadly Harassment is a crime that community conversation isn't going to stop. At least, in all of human experience it has yet to do the job fully... Hopefully someday I'll be proven wrong. Edit: If it's not clear, I'm suggesting that having this discussion won't help the issue. Not because having it is bad, it's a very good discussion to have. But because those who are causing the problems to begin with aren't interested in listening, and won't stop behaving the way they do as a result. Edited November 3, 2015 by Nazryn | |} ---- So its not about policing bad behavior or punishing bad behavior. But you want people to change their behavior though dont you? you're not going to be able to do that through dialogue alone...not if you want to get to everybody that behaves badly. Some assholes will stop acting like assholes when you ask them. Some assholes wont stop unless you take their toys away. You dont want to punish people? well that's fine by me....but *I do* want to punish them. I want to talk it out with the people who want to talk it out and for those that want to thumb their nose at us? I want CRB to hit them so hard with the banhammer that it sends them right back to world of warcraft. | |} ---- ---- ----